dYdX Treasury SubDAO Proposal

As a validator we are not at all pleased with the discourse on the forums so far for a proposal that will cost the dYdX community up to 1m dollars.

Speaking with ex-delegates and many stakers at Token2049 as well I dont believe this situation to be resolved yet.

This is largely because the Proposers have yet to show any willingness to change their original proposal and draft. Additionally much of the questions are answered without enough detail.

I would prefer the Ops subDao to wait longer for proposing these votes on-chain or even try to find additional vendors.

Best,
Ertemann
Lavender.Five Nodes

EDIT: (this was also communicated to KarpatKey)

If the proposal would include more of the following it would be easier for us to judge this proposal positively.

  1. Clear cost description (legal, entity, man hours to claim/stake)

  2. a constant management fee not based on dYdX staking yield

  3. an explainer on their margin/markup

  4. a concise plan for usage of USDC rewards to generate extra yield

  5. A performance fee on the USDC managed portion

  6. Underperformance clause

We seek more transparency and Measurable costs/Kpis.

Hello @Ertemann,

we really value transparency and understand you might require additional visibility on these points. Hoping to address your open points, see a more detailed breakdown below.

We have an internal cost breakdown estimating a total of 2.5 FTE equivalents for the core team (varying based on the peaks of work).

A dedicated team covering treasury, risk, and data will be set up for the dYdX ecosystem and led by an experienced Treasury Management Lead. This team will be dedicated to the design of the staking program and related selection process for onboarding validators, followed by its execution, day-to-day operations, and the needs of the dYdX engagement. Additionally, this team will take care of treasury management, financial planning and reporting activities. We expect one of our data analysts and strategy & operations engineers to support our Treasury Management Lead with this.
However, because of how we work, it is very likely that various other karpatkey team members will contribute their skills on a per-need basis. Some examples of this are:

  • internal advisory from our in-house Treasury Manager leading the effort of running validators for Gnosis Chain, for our staking program to be designed with the needs/benefits of validators in mind;
  • internal advisory from our in-house Treasury Managers that led incentive campaigns across various projects, to make sure incentives are aligned;
  • check-ins with our business development, DAO growth and governance teams to explore synergies between dYdX and other projects in the karpatkey network as well as opportunities for dYdX community members.

The specifics might change based on the needs of the Treasury SubDAO, but our larger karpatkey organisation will always be available to support this endeavour.

Time and resources will be dedicated towards this dYdX engagement from other teams in the karpatkey organisation, including (but not limited to):

  • our in-house legal team, focusing on setting up a Cayman Foundation and related initial bootstrap activities. We expect our legal officer to be the main reference point for this, with help from our legal manager on a per-need basis;
  • our in-house tech team will prepare all of the required pieces of infrastructure (e.g. SubDAO structure, reporting engine, etc). We expect one of our data engineers and one of our developers to contribute to this, with support from our tech lead, on a per-need basis;
  • our governance and growth teams to collect feedback/suggestions from relevant stakeholders with the goal of continuously improving the initiative and serving the changing needs of the dYdX ecosystem;
  • our marketing team to advocate and be an active dYdX ambassador.

Therefore, benchmarked with your estimations, karpatkey would bring higher contributions and value.

For reference, we have dedicated over a month on analysing, researching and sourcing the relevant information, engaging with stakeholders, refining the proposal, and communicating the value of it for dYdX. This has involved cross-functional work with contributions from our legal, tech, treasury management, strategy & operations, governance and marketing teams.

Additionally, overhead costs for the foundation set-up consist of between $50k and $60k during the first year (depending on the specifics of the setup). For Year 2 and onward, this cost decreases to $35,000 as the foundation expenses are reduced.

karpatkey will subsidise the costs associated with the initial setup of the Treasury SubDAO and Cayman Foundation infrastructure as a signal of our long-term commitment to the dYdX community.

We believe in dYdX and want our fees to reflect our alignment with the project. The minimum of $300k per year represents the break-even point during the first year. As you can see from the above, our approach naturally contributes towards the expansion of the ecosystem. In line with this, our engagement with dYdX had built-in KPIs and grows in profitability with the growth of dYdX.

This structure enables us to benefit only from high profits if we contribute to the substantial growth of the ecosystem rather than setting an elevated flat fee straight from the beginning.

This proposal is focused on directly responding to the Treasury SubDAO call to action shared by the dYdX Foundation. But, suggestions on possible scope expansions have already been shared.

Leveraging USDC in the context of DeFi strategies to generate additional yield is indeed one of this suggestions.

We decided to include this element as an optional so as not to go off-topic with respect to the call to action. However, if there is an interest from the community, this is a scope extension that can be introduced right away.

A clawback option is present in all of our engagements with DAOs. This ensures our continued engagement with the DAO is linked both to our performance and to the level of satisfaction of the DAO.

From the summary in our proposal:

Are you willing to move to a ~100k-200k Base as a direct payment and an additional performance share of ~10% on any yield generated on the USDC rewards?

Although i value that you are looking for alignment I don’t see how the dYdX staking rewards are a KPI for the treasury subDao, therefore your payment option isn’t correlated with the work being done.

In my opinion a move to base pay (for legal + consistent costs for people) + a performance fee for any yield generated that is higher than the staking benchmark (staking APY - 5% commission) would be the best way to align dYdX with the Treasury SubDao. Potentially for the initial year the base fee can be higher to accomodate for setup costs and the smaller USDC treasury, in follow up proposals this weighting can be changed.

Best,
Ertemann

The Ops subDAO has published a comparison with the Steakhouse proposal, and the two on-chain proposals have been published as well.

Clarifying the karpatkey fees based on the questions received.

Currently, karpatkey will request $300k per year, as the 5% fee currently equates to approx. $250k. This will remain at the minimum until substantial growth in the dYdX ecosystem is achieved.

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Following our recent AMA, we wanted to provide written answers to the questions raised by the community:

1. How does karpatkey’s experience managing other DAO treasuries align with dYdX’s unique goals and challenges?

karpatkey currently manages over $1B in non-custodial AUM, and the total value of our partner treasuries exceeds $2.1B. Our DeFi treasury network includes GnosisDAO, Balancer, ENS, CoW Protocol, Aave, SAFE, Arbitrum, Uniswap, and Lido, among others. While each DAO faces unique challenges, we see many common themes that align with the goals and challenges of dYdX. Those include securing financial sustainability, managing risk, and supporting growth initiatives.

To give one example, we have managed the Gnosis DAO treasury from 2020. During that time, treasury assets have grown consistently with yields peaking above $1.5M a week, with no security incidents. In addition to asset management, karpatkey supports a number of strategic initiatives for Gnosis DAO. We are highly experienced in the technical, economic and risk management aspects of staking programs. We manage 8260 validators on Gnosis Chain (although with dYdX, we will not run our own validators); we periodically assess staking as a diversification alternative, considering not only economic performance but also governance, tech and market risks that could affect validation.

At Gnosis we also design and execute incentive programs, raise capital, build partnerships, and bring greater liquidity to Gnosis Chain. It’s this holistic view of treasury management - not just focusing on traditional asset management - that differentiates karpatkey. And as our network of treasury partners has grown, so has our ability to find synergies across all of those partners. We will take the same approach at dYdX.


2. The staking program will reduce APR for existing delegators. How does diverting staking rewards to the Treasury SubDAO enhance the value of DYDX compared to the benefits of directly rewarding delegators and validators?

As we consider dYdx’s long-term financial sustainability, the staking program is a key first step to diversifying and replenishing the Community Treasury.

Our program is expected to contribute a net amount of 4.8M USDC per year to the treasury (considering current metrics). This is a solid foundation for the project’s long-term health and stability.

Having designed several incentive campaigns, we are cognizant of the APR/net income sensitivity of validators due to the magnitude of their investments in running their operations and holding high standards. With this program, we believe the net APR impact will be minimal, and in some cases, existing validators could potentially see an increase in total rewards, depending on allocation.


3. How will the selection process of validators in the staking program work?

We’ve already begun collecting feedback from validators and other key stakeholders to design a program that rewards “good validators”. The key principles guiding our selection process include:

  • Positive contributions to the ecosystem
  • Transparent selection criteria
  • Clear validator performance metrics

We will build upon the Foundation’s work, including their “Good Practices for Validators” and “Stake Delegation Principles”, to ensure we create a robust staking program that benefits the entire dYdX ecosystem, long-term.


4. Any insight on how staking DYDX from a treasury subDAO will impact stakers, validators, and security of the dYdX Chain in terms of total network stakeweight?

To drive ecosystem growth, the 40M DYDX tokens in the Community Treasury will be staked with external staking providers (validators).

The staking program is expected to increase the amount of staked DYDX by ~16%, reducing network yield. On the other hand, validators’s revenues will be positively impacted by these tokens being delegated to them.

Additionally, the treasury is estimated to see a net contribution of 4.8M USDC per year from the staking program (based on current metrics). This will not only enhance the project’s financial stability but also support the expansion of the broader ecosystem.

Security is a top priority in the design of this program. By diversifying the delegation across multiple “good” validators, we aim to improve the dYdX ecosystem while maintaining the current structure and dynamics.


5. Why is the creation of a Treasury Management SubDAO preferable to a fully automated treasury management process?

With the current state of DeFi, we believe active treasury management combined with autonomous tooling is superior to more autonomous strategies. Active management provides greater flexibility, helps to discover growth opportunities (e.g. synergies across DAOs), and improves security.

Automation definitely has its place. We have automated much of the monthly reporting we provide to our DAOs, and we also have invested heavily in automated emergency response infrastructure to keep our DAOs safe.


6. How will the community be involved in decision-making regarding changes in the Treasury SubDAO’s strategy or risk management?

We value DAO collaboration, so we regularly engage with the project stakeholders and want them to hold us accountable.

Treasury strategies are pre-approved by the communities we serve. We operate within those predefined boundaries through the non-custodial infrastructure we have developed over many years. karpatkey would be responsible for each financial decision made within our mandate, observing our strict risk management guidelines.


7. How will you ensure transparency and accountability in the operations of the Treasury SubDAO?

karpatkey is dedicated to being transparent with the communities we serve. We will apply our thorough reporting and accountability practices to dYdX and customize them to address the community’s specific needs, ensuring complete visibility into treasury management activities.


8. If your proposal is successful, do you see any synergies with other projects that you are working with?

We are always looking for synergies across the projects we work with, even when not directly in scope. Our ecosystem development expertise has provided substantial value to other DAOs, and we look forward to bringing that same value to dYdX.

We see multiple potential synergies with other projects we’re currently managing. For example, with Nexus Mutual there is potential to offer insurance solutions across various projects. A MegaVault depositor might be interested in securing insurance against liquidation risks caused by price feed errors, which would refund users in the event of an unexpected disruption.

Additionally, as we expand our presence across the Cosmos ecosystem, MegaVault could play a key role in offering risk-adjusted returns. As the MegaVault matures, we may explore opportunities to stake assets we manage for other protocols in the vault, particularly if it proves to offer attractive returns while maintaining security.


9. What criteria will determine whether USDC yield is deployed into dYdX products like the upcoming MegaVault versus other yield-generating strategies?

We will evaluate the deployment of USDC into the MegaVault carefully. However, we’ll need to consider whether deploying too much capital too early could suppress yields for others and limit the vault’s ability to attract new users. Based on scale and demand, we’ll take a cautious approach.


10. How will the buyback initiative for DYDX tokens impact the overall tokenomics, liquidity, and price stability of the project?

The buyback initiative is an optional component that will be evaluated if there is sufficient community interest. While buybacks typically have a positive impact on market sentiment, they must be balanced with our goal of diversification. We’ll proceed carefully in terms of scale and timing.


11. Can you elaborate on the choice of proposing a 5% fee structure? How does it ensure value for the dYdX community, especially considering existing alternatives?

Currently, karpatkey will request $300k per year (our break-even point). And, this will remain at the minimum until substantial growth for the dYdX ecosystem is achieved (at which point, we will switch to a 5% fee).

Our 5% fee structure aligns our incentives with dYdX’s long-term goals. We are motivated to build a long-term relationship with dYdX and drive value, similar to how we support all of our partners.

We have never prioritised short-term benefits over our partners’ long-term sustainability and security. That’s why we maintain multi-year relationships with all of our partners. For example, our asset management yield strategies involve only battle-tested protocols, as greater yield is not worth the added risk. We often divert liquidity from short-term yield strategies to support longer-term strategic growth initiatives, even when it reduces our potential fees.

We believe in dYdX, and our approach naturally contributes to the expansion of the ecosystem. In line with this, our engagement with dYdX has built-in KPIs and grows in profitability with the growth of dYdX.
This structure enables us to benefit only from high profits if we contribute to the substantial growth of the ecosystem rather than setting an elevated flat fee straight from the beginning.


12. What fee will you charge if a separate proposal is launched to generate yield on USDC or to enact a buy-back and stake program?

Our fee will depend on the effort required. If USDC is simply allocated to the MegaVault, there will be no additional fees. However, for more complex strategies that outperform MegaVault, fees would be tied to that outperformance.


  1. Stakecito question: What are the main differences between karpatkey’s proposal and other options?

karpatkey’s proposal is focused on specifically addressing the immediate needs of the dYdX community, as expressed by the dYdX Foundation in their call to action. We believe this is a key first step towards dYdX’s growth and long-term financial sustainability.

In the immediate term, we would be implementing a staking program that simultaneously benefits the community (delegating approx. 40M DYDX from the Community Treasury to validators) and grows + diversifies the Treasury. Based on current metrics, we estimate a net contribution of 4.8M USDC per year to the Treasury.

We have a multi-year track record of managing complex DAO treasuries without any hacks or lost funds. We focus on long-term financial sustainability and are confident we can effectively help dYdX navigate volatile markets while continuing to grow.

Additionally, thanks to our comprehensive in-house expertise, we can adapt quickly to dYdX’s evolving needs. Suggestions on possible future extensions of the Treasury SubDAO’s scope are already included in the proposal. Namely, leveraging the accumulated USDC to generate additional yield and executing DYDX buybacks to positively energise the token market.

Finally, one of karpatkey’s core strengths is our focus on ecosystem development and finding synergies across our partner network. We always look for ways to support our partners that go well beyond asset management. By selecting karpatkey, dYdX would enter our network of well-known leaders in the DeFi space and benefit from synergic opportunities.

All of this comes at a cost of $300k per year, and only increases with the substantial growth of the dYdX ecosystem (switching to a 5% fee). We believe this aligns incentives with dYdX, as opposed to setting an elevated flat fee from the beginning.

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Hi all,

Avantgarde is a crypto native asset management, advisory and research firm, specialising in asset liability management, R&D, special situations, risk monitoring and on-chain diversification strategies. We have conducted work for leading protocols including Uniswap, The Graph, Arbitrum, Nexus Mutual, Paraswap, Enzyme and others.

We appreciate the proposals made by Steakhouse Financial and Karpatkey and wanted to offer our thoughts. They are both well thought out and can add value to the ecosystem and contribute towards the foundation’s proposed objectives. However, as a service provider in this space ourselves, we find the fees proposed by both parties to be very high relative to the scope, and the lack of details surrounding the implementation of the plan feels rushed.

If for some reason the current proposals do not pass, we will be presenting a proposal that:

  • Better aligns interest across validators and other stakeholders
  • Is much more competitive on fees

If you’d like to meet with us in the meantime, please get in touch with us at info@avantgarde.finance.

EDIT: see our proposal here dYdX Treasury subDAO Proposal: Avantgarde Finance

Thank you!

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Well, I think priority should be given to:

Before any start of any selection process clearly announce in advance the requirements so that all validators can review and prepare accordingly. This is to improve the processes of the dYdX Foundation, because they update their criteria without validators knowing in advance and they are only informed once the selection has been already done without any possibility to adjust to meet the updated requirements

  • Support early validators who joined at genesis or shortly after rather than newer validators

  • Focus on validators with the best uptime, governance participation and good MEV score

  • Avoid validators already too large, too centralized or belonging to VCs, funds, etc. and focus on smaller validator to increase the decentralization

  • Support to long term contributing validators in several areas that deserve more delegations but that for certain reasons are not part of the dYdX foundation delegation program yet or Stride set

  • Focus on validators that vote yes and support your proposal

  • Focus on validators spending a lot of resources on top bare metal servers based on Japan with the highest bandwidth costs and avoid validators running cheap cloud infra in cheap and popular locations

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Thanks for the feedback. These are all excellent points.

Certainly.

We will consider many, if not all, of your recommendations listed regarding MEV, network decentralisation, and validator infrastructure (cloud-based vs. bare-metal).

As previously mentioned, we intend to build upon the existing community discussions and documents from the Foundation’s work, including their “Good Practices for Validators” and “Stake Delegation Principles,” to help guide the allocation process for validators.

Our intention behind using existing documents and discussions is to make the allocation decisions as predictable as possible for validators to eliminate surprises. We also want the criteria to be balanced so that we and the community can predictably consider the externalities arising from these allocation decisions.

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Congrats for your proposal winning the governance voting. Is there a timeline for the release of the delegation criteria? And please give time for validators to review and adhere to the criteria before you start any review. For example if 10% max commission is a requirement, give some time so validators can adjust the commission before the review. Then for the review and delegations themselves, is there also a rough timeline?

Thank you @Cosmic_Validator ! We are excited to start contributing to the dYdX Ecosystem. We have started setting up the legal and onchain infrastructure for the subDAO. We plan to launch the staking program in November (ideally before DevCon). Next week, we will create a formal forum thread providing more details about the SubDAO and rough timelines.

For our planning, should we be aware of technically encoded timelocks/delays on validators for fee adjustment?

We appreciate your patience.

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What do you mean by this?

Great looking forward to it :handshake:

Related to the quote from your previous post. See below:

Let us know if there are any timeline constraints we should be aware of.

No, as long as you publish the criteria, the community provides feedback and then you give validators some time to review and adhere to the final criteria requirements it should be fine

In this proposal around 50% of the current treasury or 40M DYDX was suggested. In 2026, as mentioned there will be an additional around 120M DYDX in the treasury so 200M DYDX in total. To keep the 50% ratio, will @karpatkey request another 60M DYDX to manage so it will be 100M DYDX or 50% of the treasury in 2026?